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Re: image 12

Postby DocZ » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:53 am

O.K. Everyone! Here is my solution, along with proof that both Verse #6 and Image #12 are linked and represent New York City.
My final answer is that the clues lead to the sandy area to the east of the U.S.S. Maine Memorial at Merchant’s Gate, which is the southwest entrance to Central Park in New York City, just off of Columbus Circle (which is at the intersection of Broadway, 8th Avenue, and 59th street).

Let’s start at the beginning. I am fairly new to the quest. I was introduced to The Secret when a Facebook friend linked to the Boing Boing article about James Renner and his documentary about The Secret. It piqued my interest and brought me to The Secret Wiki, a page containing partial solutions.

I want to emphasize that when I started, I was looking at information online and did not have a copy of the book. However, because I became interested, I have purchased a copy of the book, and I am now fully invested in this quest.

On the Secret Wiki front page is a list of the images and a “Status Grid” with partial solutions which may or may not be correct. Image 12 was suggested to correspond to New York City. As I used to live in New York and have some familiarity with it, but no familiarity with any of the other cities suggested as a solution, I started there to see if I agreed that Image #12 really represented New York. I do.

These are the reasons Image #12 represents New York:
A) The Square Shaped Clock indicates Times Square.
B) The face on the woman looks like the Statue of Liberty’s face.
C) The coordinate 74 (clearly) and 41 (probably, but less clear) are located in the waves. It just so happens that the coordinates of the final location that I will lead you to in New York are  40.768326, -73.980871.

In hindsight, those are the only clues which are generic to New York and are not specific to the treasure location.

The following Link should take you to Mediafire. I have posted a picture of Image #12 with red letters positioned on the picture, corresponding to the clues I mention both here and later in the discussion.

https://www.mediafire.com/?6kk7pl93m2n3tbg

There are also some clues specific to which one of the treasures goes with the image, but these clues are of no help with the location process.

D) A Blue Topaz is pictured below the woman.
E) The time on the clock is 11:00. Eleven represents November. Topaz is November’s Birthstone.
F) The flower in her hand is Chrysanthemum, which is the birth flower for November.
G) The Church depicted is NOT in New York. It is the Church of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary, situated on the banks of the Neva River in St. Petersburg, Russia. On page 21 of The Secret, in the Litany of the Jewels, the book states, “A Topaz is the Russian prize: The royal sunstone, frozen fire.” The church is a Russian Church to indicate the Russian prize. It is blue like a Topaz to indicate the jewel. Again, this is a clue about the treasure itself, not its location.

Here is a picture of the church: http://www.mediafire.com/view/veidj3vcj5uev3d/Assumption.jpg


On the Secret Wiki Status Grid and on the Image #12 page, there is discordant information about the appropriate verse. The Status grid claims that Verse #10 is correct. On the Image #12 page, Sonoran claims that Verse #6 is correct, but thinks it refers to the Alexander Holley Monument in Washington Square park. I had to figure out which was the true verse and location on my own. The correct verse is Verse #6, but Sonoran is wrong about the location.

To review what I posted previously, so that the entire solution is consolidated into one place (with some updates/editing) here is the solution to Verse #6:

Of all the romance retold
Men of tales and tunes
Cruel and bold
Seen here


Refers to Broadway Musicals in New York City. Start on Broadway.
A note about how I interpret Byron Preiss clues. Some of his clues are quotes from literature. They imply a feature we are supposed to figure out, but are not intended to be used as a direct quote or to purely be true to the source material. For example, a quote from Treasure Island does not mean we have to be on an Island (although Manhattan is an island) or that we have to be dealing with pirates. Romance, tales, and tunes can mean Broadway shows.

By eyes of old

I’ll get back to this one. It becomes clear later in the verse.

Stand and listen to the birds

Lots of pigeons on statues in New York. Indicates we are looking for a public park with a monument/statue.

There is a monument in the center of Columbus Circle, where Broadway intersects 8th Avenue and 59th Street. (That is not the correct place. But it is on the way, so lets go there first to work it out and see if the solution becomes more obvious.)

Hear the cool, clear song of water.

Oops, no fountain at the monument on Columbus Circle. But what is that right across the street at the southwest entrance to Central Park? A monument with fountains on it? Yes! Let’s cross the street and look at the U.S.S. Maine National Monument.

Here is a picture: http://www.mediafire.com/view/aeq1dr69h8kjg2m/IMG_2421.jpg

Harken to the words:
Freedom at the birth of a century


To be honest, I don’t know what "Freedom at the birth of a century" means. But even without this clue, the subsequent clues prove me right.

Or May 1913

The U.S.S. Maine National Monument was dedicated May 30, 1913

Edwin and Edwina named after him

This is a quote from the book “Abroad in America” about someone named Edward Blyden. Again, I believe Byron Preiss used literary references to imply things - that we are talking about someone named Edward. I do not think he intended to require that the source material must be used literally to fulfill the clue. (For example a quote from Herman Melville was meant to lead to Hermann Park in Houston, not necessarily leading to whatever the exact words of the quote were about.)

Instead, this quote about someone named Edward refers to the building at 2 Columbus Circle designed by the famous architect EDWARD Durrell Stone.
We are in the right place.

Or on the eighth a scene

Where are we again? The intersection of Broadway, with EIGHTH Avenue and 59th Street. We are still in the right place.

Now I will explain “By eyes of old”: One side of the USS Maine National Monument has a young figure representing the Pacific Ocean (discovered later),
http://www.mediafire.com/view/5xaaz6s9dnqd7od/IMG_2430.jpg
the other side has an old figure, representing the Atlantic Ocean (known to European explorers first).  
http://www.mediafire.com/view/wifm5sdg3990svc/Atlantic.jpg
The verse is indicating to go toward the side of the monument with the older figure.

Where law defended
Between two arms extended


Now here is where it gets tricky. There are actually 3 figures on this monument who have two arms extended.
In the front are a young boy named Victory http://www.mediafire.com/view/witufrfoa7peku2/IMG_2420.jpg
and a woman named Courage. http://www.mediafire.com/view/4jz3o8pvgdmphfo/IMG_2419.jpg
In the back is a woman named Justice. http://www.mediafire.com/view/usszgd5z3lj4y9q/IMG_2431.jpg
Justice is more likely to be a defender of law. Also, old Atlantic Ocean is looking backwards at Justice, not forwards towards Victory and Courage. So Justice is seen here by eyes of old.


Below the bar that binds

A literary way of saying a sand bar binding a ship. The front of the Monument is sculpted into the prow of a ship.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/aeq1dr69h8kjg2m/IMG_2421.jpg
At the rear of the monument is a sandy area. This could almost be considered to look like a ship caught on a sand bar.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/lo2e3sd9kjx3wj2/IMG_2423.jpg

Beside the long palm's shadow

 There is a plaque is on the monument between the old Atlantic Ocean figure and the rear-facing Justice. Several copies of this plaque were stamped out and affixed to several USS Maine memorials across the country. There is a long palm frond on the plaque.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/yglbdolz53p8iqp/IMG_2435.jpg

Alternate Solution:

Justice has her right hand partially clenched and her left hand more open.  Her left/our right is the long palm.   That is the side closer to the old Atlantic Ocean figure, and to the plaque too.  So it all fits.  
http://www.mediafire.com/view/7zubwpw612mot8n/Justice.jpg

Either way, we want to know what is below that plaque.

What about the figures with outstretched arms in front? Victory has both hands clenched.  Courage has both hands open.  The phrase long palm does not distinguish which side to dig on, if you are looking at the front figures.

Embedded in the sand

Again, there is a sandy area at the rear of the monument instead of having the marble sidewalks go all the way around. This is where to dig.

http://www.mediafire.com/view/zxrs2w8z07nh0u6/IMG_2440.jpg and http://www.mediafire.com/view/xqp3er4o938v62t/IMG_2441.jpg

Waits the Fair remuneration

Here is where the prize is. Dig in the sand under the plaque in between Justice and the Atlantic Ocean.

White house close at hand.

A distractor to make you think of Washington DC. The building 262 Central Park West is also known as the White House. We are at the southwest corner of Central Park, not too far from the building.


But now that we are at that location, I promised you some additional visual confirmation. So here are the additional clues.

H) The bottom of the dress of the woman in the painting is in the shape of the northern and eastern borders of Maine, if Maine were rotated upside down.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/10o0mc8nzo55clz/MaineDress.jpg

I) Look closely at the prow of the ship just below Victory. Our friendly eagle is NOT a generic New York clue from the Chrysler Building, but a specific confirmation that I am correct.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/5n6xgw4wmida2y3/IMG_2432.jpg

J) The same goes for the rectangle to the left of the Russian Church. There are 4 of these pylons located on the site. That is NOT a world trade center, as some have suggested. It IS a feature of the U.S.S. Maine memorial. 2 of the pylons have doors that are green with age. 2 are still black
http://www.mediafire.com/view/mg8emdutklmt3rc/IMG_2425.jpg

K) It is a little hard to see because my photos are taken from below Justice, who has her arms up. Instead, the painting has her arms down so you see the hands from the front. But the finger positioning on the “two arms extended” of Justice matches the finger positioning in the painting.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/6vohng2ohgds77w/IMG_2439-2.jpg

L) I also think the head of one of the horses from the top of the monument can be seen in the waves. This is not as clear-cut as the other clues.
http://www.mediafire.com/view/zztpc6e6w18bbga/Horses.jpg

M) I know Byron Preiss said that only the Pictures and Verses mattered. I know that the rest of the book is not *supposed* to contain clues. But could Page 67 of The Secret make it any more clear about the fact that Mr. Preiss found this location to be interesting and spent some time here when planning the book?
http://www.mediafire.com/view/lzmk84rvcsov8o9/IMG_2415.jpg

I rest my case.

P.S. I noticed page 67 after I got my copy of the book, which was AFTER I had already decided that this was the location. But it was a nice confirmatory element.
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Re: image 12

Postby erexere » Fri Aug 22, 2014 1:45 pm

DocZ, its not my job to give you guff...but I do like your effort.
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Re: image 12

Postby forest_blight » Fri Aug 22, 2014 5:47 pm

This is really compelling, DocZ. I am not completely convinced, but it is compelling for sure.

I haven't seen the Times Square interpretation before -- I love that, and it seems in line with the kind of wordplay/imageplay that BP and JJP would engage in.
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Re: image 12

Postby Siskel » Fri Aug 22, 2014 6:29 pm

I LOVE the eagle and I also love the photo on page 67 of the statue. Very interesting and impressive indeed. My problems continue to be, in no particular order: 1) I do NOT see Maine in the outline of her dress -- the other maps (Ohio and Roanoke for example) are EXACT renditions of the place and that robe is just, by comparison, NOT spot on; 2) much of he language is guesswork to make it fit - in both the Cleveland and Chicago verses, not a word was wasted, let alone a full sentence or three. But here for example, you are suggesting the first three lines are all related to "Broadway." While I like the interpretation generally, I do not believe BP would have devoted three lines to one thought like that; and 3) it is just so hard for me to imagine BP digging in the sand outside the entrance to Central Park at ANY time of day, inconspicously. Someone surely would have seen him exposed there and either stopped this crazy man from digging, or, in the case of the average New Yorker, waited til he was gone and just dug it up immediately to see what had been left there.

And I am NOT being critical, as I was REALLY intrigued by a lot of what you posted, but I sort of feel that the Edwin and Edwina line is a stretch to say there is a building across the way built by an architect named Edward. Just does not jive with the kind of prose he wrote in the ones that were solved that were SO location sensitive. Same with the White House line. I agree it designed as a distraction creating the impression of DC, but clearly not - still, while I love that there is a building that fronts Central Park West known as the white house, it is located up between 85th and 86th, while the Columbus Circle entrance to the Park (the area you are focused in on) is almost 30 NYC blocks south at 58th/59th and that is a LONG way to correspond the idea that White House is close at hand -- UNLESS, and I have not been over there to see it myself -- one of those white structures with the black or green doors could be considered a "White house" that is close at hand (meaning look for the one that is close to where one of the significant statue hands is pointing?! Just a thought.)

Anyway, I am excited about the prospect of a new theory and completely applaud your effort thus far. And I will be thrilled if, and when, you actually go over there and dig it up. I am just saying there remains an awful lot that seems disconnected. That church, while it might be the one in Russia, is a big time stretch for me, as it seems more something you can see from the location, rather than a reference to a country of origin. And those darn red and blue bauble panels - they remain the key to me to solving this puzzle. Until someone is standing somewhere and can tie those in, this casque will never be found. NO WAY BP and JP would have wasted those many panels in the illustration on something unless it was extremely important and tied directly into the sight itself, and my guess is, again, something easily seen from the location when you are standing close to where he buried that casque. Stained glass somewhere?! I did notice that there are a number of subway stops on the map at the nearby Columbus Circle spot. I wonder if there is a corresponding color scheme for that that might tie in here (I know people have posted previously about colors of subways and train lines and maybe that might be some kind of marker). A good start and a great way to have spent much of my afternoon doing some digging around in support of your theory, at the expense of my job, but not yet thoroughly convinced the way you are that you are in the right place. I sincerely hope I am wrong for your sake.
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Re: image 12

Postby Siskel » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:19 pm

Poking around this site today in an effort to help my friend Egbert and his upcoming St Augustine search. Sometimes I forget how many really smart people have done so much work on this site already. When I referred to DocZ's theory as new I was obviously wrong. This USS Maine Memorial/Columbus Circle theory has been presented before as I saw a link dating back to 2009. I apologize for not seeing that before my earlier post.
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Re: image 12

Postby DocZ » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:44 am

Siskel wrote:Sometimes I forget how many really smart people have done so much work on this site already. When I referred to DocZ's theory as new I was obviously wrong. This USS Maine Memorial/Columbus Circle theory has been presented before as I saw a link dating back to 2009. I apologize for not seeing that before my earlier post.


I had come up with the idea on my own. Search was not working when I joined the board. I had to read the entire Verse #6 thread to see if the idea had been already been discussed and discredited before I posted my idea. Rookhunter had suggested it in January 2013, but White Rabbit emphatically shot him down with the “It’s not in Central Park” quote, and Rookhunter dropped it. I am of the opinion that the U.S.S. Maine Monument counts as being “at the entrance to” the park, not “in” the park. I think Byron Preiss was intentionally vague to throw us off the trail. Thus, I did not take that quote to mean that the idea had been discredited, which is why I am advocating it. I did PM Rookhunter to see if he wanted to work with me, but he is not located in New York.

However, now that Search has been fixed, I now see that I missed the fact that there was an entirely different thread on Columbus Circle & Maine Monument New York started by m220m on 6/16/09. Plus the thread mentions Bazile, who at least noticed the eagle even before that, in July 2008. m220m even mentions that he sees my same confirmers [Eagle, Woman (I assume he means the 2 arms of Justice), and Rectangle (the 4 pylons)]. Furthermore, that thread even discussed that the Monument could technically be considered to be outside the park. But then forest_blight raises a questions about the first few lines of the Verse, and the topic gets dropped. I wonder why? It was a great idea then and is still a great idea now.

I agree, there are a lot of smart members on this board. I may not be the first, but I know this is right, so I'm not going to drop it like the others.
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Re: image 12

Postby forest_blight » Sat Aug 23, 2014 3:51 am

Wow, I totally forgot all that. Sometime when I have a free year I will go back and read all the old discussions.
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Re: image 12

Postby DocZ » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:43 am

Siskel Wrote:
“My problems continue to be, in no particular order: 1) I do NOT see Maine in the outline of her dress -- the other maps (Ohio and Roanoke for example) are EXACT renditions of the place and that robe is just, by comparison, NOT spot on”


I am not sure about the Ohio map being “spot on.” The centaur’s tail matched a curved road. It is not like it was a detailed map or anything. I agree that the shape of Roanoke island in the window frame is more obvious. But I think my Maine outline is as good as the Cleveland clue.

Siskel Wrote:
“2) much of the language is guesswork to make it fit - in both the Cleveland and Chicago verses, not a word was wasted, let alone a full sentence or three. But here for example, you are suggesting the first three lines are all related to "Broadway." While I like the interpretation generally, I do not believe BP would have devoted three lines to one thought like that”


The lines definitely refer to Broadway. Could they have meant 3 different shows currently in production at the time: Some romance show, Cats (tails and tunes), and Phantom of the Opera (Cruel and Bold)? Would you be happier if each line were a clue unto itself? Fine, it is possible that they were intended to be. But that doesn’t change the final solution. Those lines just get us to a road before we reach an approximate location. The more detailed steps come later.

Look at Verse #11. The consensus is that the first line, “Pass two friends of Octave” refer to Orville and Wilbur Wright, who have a monument nearby and who were friends with someone named Octavio Chanute. Personally, I think friends of octave refers to Highway 64 (8 x 8 ) and 264 (200 + 8 x 8 ). Either way, if you know that the next lines “Ride the man of oz To the land near the window” refer to the Baum Ferry to Roanoke Island, then it doesn’t matter that you were wrong about the octave line. In the same way, the subsequent visual confirmers at the U.S.S. Maine site mean that even if all 3 of the lines did not represent Broadway, the fact that even one of the lines led to Broadway and then to the correct location means we can let the other 2 lines slide.

As an aside, BP has lots of quotes that refer to roads, like “ace is high” in Verse #7 for Highway 1 in San Francisco.

As another aside, that is why I don’t feel so bad not knowing what “Freedom at the birth of a century” means. It was probably an important clue, but we pick up the trail after it, so I think we are still safe.

Siskel Wrote:
“3) it is just so hard for me to imagine BP digging in the sand outside the entrance to Central Park at ANY time of day, inconspicously. Someone surely would have seen him exposed there and either stopped this crazy man from digging, or, in the case of the average New Yorker, waited til he was gone and just dug it up immediately to see what had been left there.”


One of the articles after one of the casques was found mentions that BP did not do his digging in secret or without permission. In an interview, he stated that he did reach out to the appropriate park director at each site and explained what he was doing. (And was surprised at how easy it was to get them all to go along with it.) In fact, he says that at one site, a ranger came over and said something along the lines of “they told me about you” and then watched him until he was done. So no one said he had to dig inconspicuously.

As for whether anyone saw him bury the box and then dug it up when he left - that would be typical for New Yorkers. Maybe THAT is what he meant when he said there was no treasure in central park.

But one more thing, since he did get permission, in New York he would have needed a permit, not just verbal permission. I have submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the parks department to see if they have a record of a permit being issued to Byron Preiss in 1980, 1981, or 1982. They may not have kept records like that for 30 years, but I figured it was worth a try.

Siskel Wrote:
“I sort of feel that the Edwin and Edwina line is a stretch to say there is a building across the way built by an architect named Edward. “


No more of a stretch than “M and B are set in stone” and “L sits”


Siskel Wrote:
“Same with the White House line. -- UNLESS, and I have not been over there to see it myself -- one of those white structures with the black or green doors could be considered a "White house" that is close at hand (meaning look for the one that is close to where one of the significant statue hands is pointing?! Just a thought.)”


I don’t disagree with you here. There is actually sand in front of those structures too. And they are more out of the way, so digging unobtrusively would have been easier. And the 3 water drops and the jewel below the Image #12 dress could be telling you which of the 4 pylons has the treasure - except the 4 structures are arranged concave away from the monument, and the 3 water drops and the jewel are concave towards the dress...

Siskel Wrote:
“That church, while it might be the one in Russia, is a big time stretch for me, as it seems more something you can see from the location, rather than a reference to a country of origin.”


I disagree. I think the church is for country of origin.

Siskel Wrote:
“And those darn red and blue bauble panels - they remain the key to me to solving this puzzle. Until someone is standing somewhere and can tie those in, this casque will never be found. NO WAY BP and JP would have wasted those many panels in the illustration on something unless it was extremely important and tied directly into the sight itself, and my guess is, again, something easily seen from the location when you are standing close to where he buried that casque. Stained glass somewhere?! I did notice that there are a number of subway stops on the map at the nearby Columbus Circle spot.”


I agree that they are a clue. Again, I don’t know what. Not the colors of the subway lines that pass through there. Could they be in a mosaic on the wall of the subway station? Could they have been some modern art hanging in the Edward Stone Building (which was an art gallery or museum at that time)? But in an interview with the artist after the Cleveland casque was found, the artist said he remembered that the helmet on the centaur was a clue, but could not remember what it was meant to represent anymore. LIkewise, we may not get all the clues, but I think we are still at the right place. We just may need ground penetrating radar to make up for what we are missing in terms of unsolved clues.
Last edited by DocZ on Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: image 12

Postby forest_blight » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:11 am

DocZ wrote:In an interview, he stated that he did reach out to the appropriate park director at each site and explained what he was doing. (And was surprised at how easy it was to get them all to go along with it.) In fact, he says that at one site, a ranger came over and said something along the lines of “they told me about you” and then watched him until he was done. So no one said he had to dig inconspicuously.


Can you remind us where you read this? I've seen a few contemporary articles in the Chicago Tribune and they don't mention this aspect.

DocZ wrote:I have submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the parks department to see if they have a record of a permit being issued to Byron Preiss in 1980, 1981, or 1982. They may not have kept records like that for 30 years, but I figured it was worth a try.


Creative, but... wow, way to ruin a hunt, buddy. Did you ever read about how Masquerade's "Golden Hare" was discovered? By subterfuge, investigating Kit Williams' movements around the time he buried the treasure, not by playing the game he devised. It's not very cricket.
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Re: image 12

Postby DocZ » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:50 am

forest_blight wrote:
DocZ wrote:In an interview, he stated that he did reach out to the appropriate park director at each site and explained what he was doing. (And was surprised at how easy it was to get them all to go along with it.) In fact, he says that at one site, a ranger came over and said something along the lines of “they told me about you” and then watched him until he was done. So no one said he had to dig inconspicuously.


Can you remind us where you read this? I've seen a few contemporary articles in the Chicago Tribune and they don't mention this aspect.


A) My bad. It was in an article about the San Francisco treasure. I mis-read it. It was a hunter named Matthew Sparks who got permission to dig, not Byron Preiss.

forest_blight wrote:
DocZ wrote:I have submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the parks department to see if they have a record of a permit being issued to Byron Preiss in 1980, 1981, or 1982. They may not have kept records like that for 30 years, but I figured it was worth a try.


Creative, but... wow, way to ruin a hunt, buddy. Did you ever read about how Masquerade's "Golden Hare" was discovered? By subterfuge, investigating Kit Williams' movements around the time he buried the treasure, not by playing the game he devised. It's not very cricket.



B) i) Now that we just established that maybe he didn't get a permit, it is a moot point.
ii) I was not using the Freedom of Information request to solve the puzzle - like going to Milwaukee where I have no clue where within the city the treasure is and asking for the copy of his permit to narrow my search. I already figured out the majority of clues in both the Verse and the Image. I was only using the the request for a historical document to confirm what I already know. Since I will need to ask for a permit too, and since the bureaucrat evaluating my permit application may not appreciate my riddle solving ability, having an actual document as proof might make the difference in terms of getting permission to dig. The game is not over until the casque is out of the ground, so making sure I am allowed to dig is not ruining the hunt.
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Re: image 12

Postby Siskel » Sat Aug 23, 2014 4:57 pm

I agree that the FOIA was a fresh idea, but also not the best "form." The Cleveland map match was not the centaur's tail being the curved road, but the actual state of Ohio hidden in the rocks and roots to the bottom left of the picture and THAT was a SPOT ON match. And when I met with Byron shortly before his passing, with Egbert to retrieve the jewel for the Cleveland casque, he spoke about scouting out locations and then just traveling there with a shovel and an idea and that he did not necessarily seek permission from any governmental agencies or private owners to dig. Rather, he just went at odd hours when possible and was secretive in his efforts to bury each casque. So please forgive me if I don't much care what articles say. I heard it from the source and he was honest in his description of how he went about his secret missions of hiding these things. He said he did not even share the locations with his wife. Just went and buried each one and took pictures of nearby objects to sent to JJP so that he could infuse the illustrations with some specific (and also general location, i.e. states, etc) markers. He also fashioned his prose around things generally associated with the site and also WHAT HE SAW WHILE THERE. So I DO think that every word and every line tends to count. Not that it is shrouded in secrecy requiring you to go to a library and find out the architect who built a building a few blocks away. I don't think he was trying to be THAT obtuse. But he was a wordsmith and seemed to take pride in burying as many clues as he could in a small amount of literary space.
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Re: image 12

Postby erexere » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:25 pm

Siskel, so you don't think a road map feature could be used from any old city map existing at the time? I thought the tail looked pretty convincing for Cleveland.

Image
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Re: image 12

Postby Siskel » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:54 am

I can only tell you from my/our experience, that that tail had NOTHING to do with finding the Cleveland casque. In fact, this is the first time I have ever even looked at that photo and seen the likeness. And while it may have been a clue intentionally buried in the illustration, it was NOT the map image I was referring to that was so helpful in narrowing down the site. Rather it was the outline of the state that got us to Ohio in the first place. Whether or not the tale was a separate additional clue, I have no real thought one way or the other. It certainly seems to bare a resemblance to the road that curved beneath two countries. But ultimately there were so many better markers in place both through the illustration and the prose that the tale played no part in our search.
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Re: image 12

Postby DocZ » Sun Aug 24, 2014 12:42 pm

Siskel wrote:Whether or not the tale was a separate additional clue, I have no real thought one way or the other. It certainly seems to bare a resemblance to the road that curved beneath two countries. But ultimately there were so many better markers in place both through the illustration and the prose that the tale played no part in our search.


And that is the point I was trying to make. We don't need to solve EVERY possible clue to get where we need to be.
The 3 pointillism panels are certainly a clue. But even though I don't know what they mean, the eagle head on the monument, the shape of the arms on Justice - which also match the "two arms extended" on the verse, and the 4 pylons with the dark rectangular doors in the same proportion as the vertical rectangle in the other panel tell me that this is the location, as sure as the columns and the fountain told you that the Cultural Gardens was correct.
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Re: image 12

Postby four21thrasher » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:19 pm

DocZ wrote:
Siskel wrote:Whether or not the tale was a separate additional clue, I have no real thought one way or the other. It certainly seems to bare a resemblance to the road that curved beneath two countries. But ultimately there were so many better markers in place both through the illustration and the prose that the tale played no part in our search.


And that is the point I was trying to make. We don't need to solve EVERY possible clue to get where we need to be.
Agree completely. This is the case with Chicago also.

DocZ wrote:... the dark rectangular doors in the same proportion as the vertical rectangle in the other panel tell me that this is the location, as sure as the columns and the fountain told you that the Cultural Gardens was correct.


Disagree completely. The "columns" area was a polaroid, but there are many doors - metaphorically and in reality. You'd need a better/different match to be sure.
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