image 12

[Siskel]

I LOVE the eagle and I also love the photo on page 67 of the statue. Very interesting and impressive indeed. My problems continue to be, in no particular order: 1) I do NOT see Maine in the outline of her dress -- the other maps (Ohio and Roanoke for example) are EXACT renditions of the place and that robe is just, by comparison, NOT spot on; 2) much of he language is guesswork to make it fit - in both the Cleveland and Chicago verses, not a word was wasted, let alone a full sentence or three. But here for example, you are suggesting the first three lines are all related to "Broadway." While I like the interpretation generally, I do not believe BP would have devoted three lines to one thought like that; and 3) it is just so hard for me to imagine BP digging in the sand outside the entrance to Central Park at ANY time of day, inconspicously. Someone surely would have seen him exposed there and either stopped this crazy man from digging, or, in the case of the average New Yorker, waited til he was gone and just dug it up immediately to see what had been left there.

And I am NOT being critical, as I was REALLY intrigued by a lot of what you posted, but I sort of feel that the Edwin and Edwina line is a stretch to say there is a building across the way built by an architect named Edward. Just does not jive with the kind of prose he wrote in the ones that were solved that were SO location sensitive. Same with the White House line. I agree it designed as a distraction creating the impression of DC, but clearly not - still, while I love that there is a building that fronts Central Park West known as the white house, it is located up between 85th and 86th, while the Columbus Circle entrance to the Park (the area you are focused in on) is almost 30 NYC blocks south at 58th/59th and that is a LONG way to correspond the idea that White House is close at hand -- UNLESS, and I have not been over there to see it myself -- one of those white structures with the black or green doors could be considered a "White house" that is close at hand (meaning look for the one that is close to where one of the significant statue hands is pointing?! Just a thought.)

Anyway, I am excited about the prospect of a new theory and completely applaud your effort thus far. And I will be thrilled if, and when, you actually go over there and dig it up. I am just saying there remains an awful lot that seems disconnected. That church, while it might be the one in Russia, is a big time stretch for me, as it seems more something you can see from the location, rather than a reference to a country of origin. And those darn red and blue bauble panels - they remain the key to me to solving this puzzle. Until someone is standing somewhere and can tie those in, this casque will never be found. NO WAY BP and JP would have wasted those many panels in the illustration on something unless it was extremely important and tied directly into the sight itself, and my guess is, again, something easily seen from the location when you are standing close to where he buried that casque. Stained glass somewhere?! I did notice that there are a number of subway stops on the map at the nearby Columbus Circle spot. I wonder if there is a corresponding color scheme for that that might tie in here (I know people have posted previously about colors of subways and train lines and maybe that might be some kind of marker). A good start and a great way to have spent much of my afternoon doing some digging around in support of your theory, at the expense of my job, but not yet thoroughly convinced the way you are that you are in the right place. I sincerely hope I am wrong for your sake.

[Siskel]

Poking around this site today in an effort to help my friend Egbert and his upcoming St Augustine search. Sometimes I forget how many really smart people have done so much work on this site already. When I referred to DocZ's theory as new I was obviously wrong. This USS Maine Memorial/Columbus Circle theory has been presented before as I saw a link dating back to 2009. I apologize for not seeing that before my earlier post.

[DocZ]

Sometimes I forget how many really smart people have done so much work on this site already. When I referred to DocZ's theory as new I was obviously wrong. This USS Maine Memorial/Columbus Circle theory has been presented before as I saw a link dating back to 2009. I apologize for not seeing that before my earlier post.

I had come up with the idea on my own. Search was not working when I joined the board. I had to read the entire Verse #6 thread to see if the idea had been already been discussed and discredited before I posted my idea. Rookhunter had suggested it in January 2013, but White Rabbit emphatically shot him down with the “It’s not in Central Park” quote, and Rookhunter dropped it. I am of the opinion that the U.S.S. Maine Monument counts as being “at the entrance to” the park, not “in” the park. I think Byron Preiss was intentionally vague to throw us off the trail. Thus, I did not take that quote to mean that the idea had been discredited, which is why I am advocating it. I did PM Rookhunter to see if he wanted to work with me, but he is not located in New York.

However, now that Search has been fixed, I now see that I missed the fact that there was an entirely different thread on Columbus Circle & Maine Monument New York started by m220m on 6/16/09. Plus the thread mentions Bazile, who at least noticed the eagle even before that, in July 2008. m220m even mentions that he sees my same confirmers [Eagle, Woman (I assume he means the 2 arms of Justice), and Rectangle (the 4 pylons)]. Furthermore, that thread even discussed that the Monument could technically be considered to be outside the park. But then forest_blight raises a questions about the first few lines of the Verse, and the topic gets dropped. I wonder why? It was a great idea then and is still a great idea now.

I agree, there are a lot of smart members on this board. I may not be the first, but I know this is right, so I'm not going to drop it like the others.

[forest_blight]

Wow, I totally forgot all that. Sometime when I have a free year I will go back and read all the old discussions.

[DocZ]

Siskel Wrote:
“My problems continue to be, in no particular order: 1) I do NOT see Maine in the outline of her dress -- the other maps (Ohio and Roanoke for example) are EXACT renditions of the place and that robe is just, by comparison, NOT spot on”

I am not sure about the Ohio map being “spot on.” The centaur’s tail matched a curved road. It is not like it was a detailed map or anything. I agree that the shape of Roanoke island in the window frame is more obvious. But I think my Maine outline is as good as the Cleveland clue.

Siskel Wrote:
“2) much of the language is guesswork to make it fit - in both the Cleveland and Chicago verses, not a word was wasted, let alone a full sentence or three. But here for example, you are suggesting the first three lines are all related to "Broadway." While I like the interpretation generally, I do not believe BP would have devoted three lines to one thought like that”

The lines definitely refer to Broadway. Could they have meant 3 different shows currently in production at the time: Some romance show, Cats (tails and tunes), and Phantom of the Opera (Cruel and Bold)? Would you be happier if each line were a clue unto itself? Fine, it is possible that they were intended to be. But that doesn’t change the final solution. Those lines just get us to a road before we reach an approximate location. The more detailed steps come later.

Look at Verse #11. The consensus is that the first line, “Pass two friends of Octave” refer to Orville and Wilbur Wright, who have a monument nearby and who were friends with someone named Octavio Chanute. Personally, I think friends of octave refers to Highway 64 (8 x 8 ) and 264 (200 + 8 x 8 ). Either way, if you know that the next lines “Ride the man of oz To the land near the window” refer to the Baum Ferry to Roanoke Island, then it doesn’t matter that you were wrong about the octave line. In the same way, the subsequent visual confirmers at the U.S.S. Maine site mean that even if all 3 of the lines did not represent Broadway, the fact that even one of the lines led to Broadway and then to the correct location means we can let the other 2 lines slide.

As an aside, BP has lots of quotes that refer to roads, like “ace is high” in Verse #7 for Highway 1 in San Francisco.

As another aside, that is why I don’t feel so bad not knowing what “Freedom at the birth of a century” means. It was probably an important clue, but we pick up the trail after it, so I think we are still safe.

Siskel Wrote:
“3) it is just so hard for me to imagine BP digging in the sand outside the entrance to Central Park at ANY time of day, inconspicously. Someone surely would have seen him exposed there and either stopped this crazy man from digging, or, in the case of the average New Yorker, waited til he was gone and just dug it up immediately to see what had been left there.”

One of the articles after one of the casques was found mentions that BP did not do his digging in secret or without permission. In an interview, he stated that he did reach out to the appropriate park director at each site and explained what he was doing. (And was surprised at how easy it was to get them all to go along with it.) In fact, he says that at one site, a ranger came over and said something along the lines of “they told me about you” and then watched him until he was done. So no one said he had to dig inconspicuously.

As for whether anyone saw him bury the box and then dug it up when he left - that would be typical for New Yorkers. Maybe THAT is what he meant when he said there was no treasure in central park.

But one more thing, since he did get permission, in New York he would have needed a permit, not just verbal permission. I have submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the parks department to see if they have a record of a permit being issued to Byron Preiss in 1980, 1981, or 1982. They may not have kept records like that for 30 years, but I figured it was worth a try.

Siskel Wrote:
“I sort of feel that the Edwin and Edwina line is a stretch to say there is a building across the way built by an architect named Edward. “

No more of a stretch than “M and B are set in stone” and “L sits”


Siskel Wrote:
“Same with the White House line. -- UNLESS, and I have not been over there to see it myself -- one of those white structures with the black or green doors could be considered a "White house" that is close at hand (meaning look for the one that is close to where one of the significant statue hands is pointing?! Just a thought.)”

I don’t disagree with you here. There is actually sand in front of those structures too. And they are more out of the way, so digging unobtrusively would have been easier. And the 3 water drops and the jewel below the Image #12 dress could be telling you which of the 4 pylons has the treasure - except the 4 structures are arranged concave away from the monument, and the 3 water drops and the jewel are concave towards the dress...

Siskel Wrote:
“That church, while it might be the one in Russia, is a big time stretch for me, as it seems more something you can see from the location, rather than a reference to a country of origin.”

I disagree. I think the church is for country of origin.

Siskel Wrote:
“And those darn red and blue bauble panels - they remain the key to me to solving this puzzle. Until someone is standing somewhere and can tie those in, this casque will never be found. NO WAY BP and JP would have wasted those many panels in the illustration on something unless it was extremely important and tied directly into the sight itself, and my guess is, again, something easily seen from the location when you are standing close to where he buried that casque. Stained glass somewhere?! I did notice that there are a number of subway stops on the map at the nearby Columbus Circle spot.”

I agree that they are a clue. Again, I don’t know what. Not the colors of the subway lines that pass through there. Could they be in a mosaic on the wall of the subway station? Could they have been some modern art hanging in the Edward Stone Building (which was an art gallery or museum at that time)? But in an interview with the artist after the Cleveland casque was found, the artist said he remembered that the helmet on the centaur was a clue, but could not remember what it was meant to represent anymore. LIkewise, we may not get all the clues, but I think we are still at the right place. We just may need ground penetrating radar to make up for what we are missing in terms of unsolved clues.

[forest_blight]

In an interview, he stated that he did reach out to the appropriate park director at each site and explained what he was doing. (And was surprised at how easy it was to get them all to go along with it.) In fact, he says that at one site, a ranger came over and said something along the lines of “they told me about you” and then watched him until he was done. So no one said he had to dig inconspicuously.

Can you remind us where you read this? I've seen a few contemporary articles in the Chicago Tribune and they don't mention this aspect.

I have submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the parks department to see if they have a record of a permit being issued to Byron Preiss in 1980, 1981, or 1982. They may not have kept records like that for 30 years, but I figured it was worth a try.

Creative, but... wow, way to ruin a hunt, buddy. Did you ever read about how Masquerade's "Golden Hare" was discovered? By subterfuge, investigating Kit Williams' movements around the time he buried the treasure, not by playing the game he devised. It's not very cricket.

[DocZ]

In an interview, he stated that he did reach out to the appropriate park director at each site and explained what he was doing. (And was surprised at how easy it was to get them all to go along with it.) In fact, he says that at one site, a ranger came over and said something along the lines of “they told me about you” and then watched him until he was done. So no one said he had to dig inconspicuously.

Can you remind us where you read this? I've seen a few contemporary articles in the Chicago Tribune and they don't mention this aspect.

A) My bad. It was in an article about the San Francisco treasure. I mis-read it. It was a hunter named Matthew Sparks who got permission to dig, not Byron Preiss.

I have submitted a Freedom of Information Act request to the parks department to see if they have a record of a permit being issued to Byron Preiss in 1980, 1981, or 1982. They may not have kept records like that for 30 years, but I figured it was worth a try.

Creative, but... wow, way to ruin a hunt, buddy. Did you ever read about how Masquerade's "Golden Hare" was discovered? By subterfuge, investigating Kit Williams' movements around the time he buried the treasure, not by playing the game he devised. It's not very cricket.

B) i) Now that we just established that maybe he didn't get a permit, it is a moot point.
ii) I was not using the Freedom of Information request to solve the puzzle - like going to Milwaukee where I have no clue where within the city the treasure is and asking for the copy of his permit to narrow my search. I already figured out the majority of clues in both the Verse and the Image. I was only using the the request for a historical document to confirm what I already know. Since I will need to ask for a permit too, and since the bureaucrat evaluating my permit application may not appreciate my riddle solving ability, having an actual document as proof might make the difference in terms of getting permission to dig. The game is not over until the casque is out of the ground, so making sure I am allowed to dig is not ruining the hunt.

[Siskel]

I agree that the FOIA was a fresh idea, but also not the best "form." The Cleveland map match was not the centaur's tail being the curved road, but the actual state of Ohio hidden in the rocks and roots to the bottom left of the picture and THAT was a SPOT ON match. And when I met with Byron shortly before his passing, with Egbert to retrieve the jewel for the Cleveland casque, he spoke about scouting out locations and then just traveling there with a shovel and an idea and that he did not necessarily seek permission from any governmental agencies or private owners to dig. Rather, he just went at odd hours when possible and was secretive in his efforts to bury each casque. So please forgive me if I don't much care what articles say. I heard it from the source and he was honest in his description of how he went about his secret missions of hiding these things. He said he did not even share the locations with his wife. Just went and buried each one and took pictures of nearby objects to sent to JJP so that he could infuse the illustrations with some specific (and also general location, i.e. states, etc) markers. He also fashioned his prose around things generally associated with the site and also WHAT HE SAW WHILE THERE. So I DO think that every word and every line tends to count. Not that it is shrouded in secrecy requiring you to go to a library and find out the architect who built a building a few blocks away. I don't think he was trying to be THAT obtuse. But he was a wordsmith and seemed to take pride in burying as many clues as he could in a small amount of literary space.

[erexere]

Siskel, so you don't think a road map feature could be used from any old city map existing at the time? I thought the tail looked pretty convincing for Cleveland.

[Siskel]

I can only tell you from my/our experience, that that tail had NOTHING to do with finding the Cleveland casque. In fact, this is the first time I have ever even looked at that photo and seen the likeness. And while it may have been a clue intentionally buried in the illustration, it was NOT the map image I was referring to that was so helpful in narrowing down the site. Rather it was the outline of the state that got us to Ohio in the first place. Whether or not the tale was a separate additional clue, I have no real thought one way or the other. It certainly seems to bare a resemblance to the road that curved beneath two countries. But ultimately there were so many better markers in place both through the illustration and the prose that the tale played no part in our search.

[DocZ]

Whether or not the tale was a separate additional clue, I have no real thought one way or the other. It certainly seems to bare a resemblance to the road that curved beneath two countries. But ultimately there were so many better markers in place both through the illustration and the prose that the tale played no part in our search.

And that is the point I was trying to make. We don't need to solve EVERY possible clue to get where we need to be.
The 3 pointillism panels are certainly a clue. But even though I don't know what they mean, the eagle head on the monument, the shape of the arms on Justice - which also match the "two arms extended" on the verse, and the 4 pylons with the dark rectangular doors in the same proportion as the vertical rectangle in the other panel tell me that this is the location, as sure as the columns and the fountain told you that the Cultural Gardens was correct.

[four21thrasher]

Whether or not the tale was a separate additional clue, I have no real thought one way or the other. It certainly seems to bare a resemblance to the road that curved beneath two countries. But ultimately there were so many better markers in place both through the illustration and the prose that the tale played no part in our search.

And that is the point I was trying to make. We don't need to solve EVERY possible clue to get where we need to be.

Agree completely. This is the case with Chicago also.

... the dark rectangular doors in the same proportion as the vertical rectangle in the other panel tell me that this is the location, as sure as the columns and the fountain told you that the Cultural Gardens was correct.

Disagree completely. The "columns" area was a polaroid, but there are many doors - metaphorically and in reality. You'd need a better/different match to be sure.

[erexere]

There was a time when nobody had any idea how these puzzles might work. If there is a nearby roadmap feature to be found in any or all of these, it can be a significant help to closing the gap. Roads may change though. Milwaukee had some major roadway alterations. Since the centaur tail came to my attention Ive been more concerned with flipped and rotated image tricks. I try to allow for only simple adjustments like exact 90 or 180 degree rotation. Anything else invites too much in the way of self-inflicted-herrings. Buying road maps from 1980 may be much more helpful than using modern day google maps.

[decibalnyc]

email from BP saying "nothing was buried in Central Park"

The guys from Chicago also were told "There was no treasure buried in Chicago" BUT....this came from BP's secretary not from him himself....very clever to deny everything at first. Siskel when you met with him you and Egg stated that he had a great poker face and wasn't leaking any info about the other casques....is this just another way of him saying that he just isn't saying...? Probably unlikely of him to bury it in the MOST LIKELY spot in New York.

He was from the Prospect Park area of Brooklyn, probably knew that park better than most, maybe spent more time there than any...Just thinking about him as a person, I would put it in Prospect Park. A friend of mine says there are some visual clues that can be seen there that relate to the picture, I can't verify them yet. In any case, one way to look at it different (as I do with these) is consider the man who buried them. The New York site was probably special to him as it was his home, his birthplace...of all the cities in North America, New York may be one of the hardest places to bury something unseen, just due to the enormous population. BP also had more time with this one...much more than a handful of hours during 1 week to bury the casque. Then again maybe he knew where to put it for years, a place he's been many times and knows like the back of his hand...somewhere familiar. I wouldn't doubt that he has visited that statue in Central Park many times, but that's just because his office is only blocks off the park...he surely made use of it....

Open your mind up to more than the hunt, think about the Man...BP, think about the era this took place, and put yourself in BP's shoes....what if you were creating this....what stumbling blocks might you encounter...what was going on in those cities back then that could effect BP's plan...Often it doesn't hurt to reverse engineer the puzzle....find a place that looks and feels like it could be right and work in reverse... It might be a little more tedious and difficult, but I assure you....you will see things differently, and it may help you unlock another clue.

Spend some time on the man and the myth and the answer may be more apparent. Don't close your eyes to the person BP was...consider how his personal feelings may have influenced his placements. Look for themes in the partial solutions...in literature, anything that points to a method...I would guess when all the riddles are solved and casque locations uncovered, there may be a bigger picture, which if we knew now, may help us get there.

By the way Siskel and Egg...why did you pick Cleveland when both of you were closer to NYC? Just curious? Also can we expect a report on what's going on with Renner's Doc and the hunt he and Brian are apparently going on in FL?

[erexere]

Once I played around with the possibilities, I found the acrostic puzzle might have a little more to do with Washington:

According to the historical walking tour at San Juan Island's American Camp (Military Base), General William Selby Harney ordered Captain George Pickett and his men to go to San Juan Island in NW WA to settle a dispute between American settlers and British soldiers. 1) move the "W" from the 2nd line to the 5th line. 2) move the "B" from the 5th line to the 14th line. 3) move the "O" from the 14th line to the 2nd. 4) shift the letters on lines 7-10 from AYSS to SAYS, you now have a coherent and complete message: TO NW WA SAYS SELBY. It's fascinating that there's a visual reference to a window relating to Washington in Selby, England and a veiled reference to a US Army General with the middle name Selby.

T T T
W T O
N N N
W W W
B B W
A A A
A A S
Y Y A
S S Y
S S S
S S S
E E E
L L L
O O B
Y Y Y